AT: Film directs attention. Philosophy does that too. It calls attention to nuance and particulars and ways of seeing the world. But, you know, I do set up my subjects for success. The film is not a critique of contemporary philosophy. I mean, I could give you my critique. The film is performing my critique of academic philosophy by taking philosophy to the streets.

n+1: Sure, but the concept of taking something to the streets can be hokey. "Taking it to the streets" is a news media cliché. That could backfire in many ways but in your film it works. The film brings philosophy back in a direct way. There are no books in the film, no one is seen at a desk writing. In fact, there's no description of who the people are, besides their names. We aren't told what they've written, where they work. It isn't necessary to the film. Did you realize you didn't need that stuff after you shot, or did you think that going in?

AT: I always thought that I wouldn't. I didn't understand what insight it would bring. I wanted the film to direct the connection between everyday life and abstract thinking. I wanted to make a film that was accessible and not exclusive, that invites people in.

Our good chum Benjamin Ray, screenwriter and filmmaker,interviews Graphic Novelist Bob Heske on the difference between grahic novels, comics, and movies.

1) Do you often get this question-Can a screenplay be turned into a graphic novel?

Actually, no. The biggest question I get is "I have an idea ... can you write a screenplay about it for me?'

Graphic novels have become a hot commodity in Hollywood in recent years and have churned out big box office success (think anything "Marvel" or the blockbuster Watchmen).

 But comic purists will tell you that OGNs (original graphic novels) are their own form of story telling art - the thing is, because these tales are essentially already "story-boarded" in sequential panel-by-panel art form, many are readily translatable to film. In  terms of what makes a great graphic novel also a great film - well,
 it's the old standbys of premise, plot and character. If you've got all three and they resonate with mass audiences - which in today's market means global audiences - then you've got a winner.

 When I sit down to write a screenplay or a comic series, I start with the story premise. Does the story or series summed up in a logline sound intriguing, unique and marketable? For example, for THE NIGHT
 PROJECTIONIST (a vampire series published by Studio 407 with film rights optioned by Myriad Pictures), the logline was:

 The night projectionist at a condemned movie theater takes his
 audience hostage on Halloween as a coven of vampires descend upon the
 town. As a bloody seige begins, a dark secret unravels and the captive
 audience must decide whether the night projectionist is here to
 protect them ... or to feast on them!

 2. There is a big demand for graphic artists and writers. Where are
 some the best places to network on the internet? Would upcoming and
 established writers and inkers in this field be interested in reading
 feature screenplays and accepting query letters? Is this a trend?

 Actually, I think the pool of writers and artists is much bigger than
 the demand. Sure, there are lots of people who want to collaborate
 with no pay upfront ... but the paying gigs are far and few between.
 That's why there are some many indie comics out there and relatively
 few "true fans" that follow each.

RE: Networking on the Net - Well, I tried a few places. The first was
 emailing local art colleges. I got poo-poohed by haughty professors
 telling me their students were too busy with assignments for blue chip
 publications. I ended up going to www.comicspace.com where hundreds of
 working artists post galleries of their work. I did a key word search
 for "horror noir" and then "befriended" the artists on comicspace by
 sending them a personal note. Ultimately, I've made almost all of my
 key connections this way from one web portal.

 I should also note that comic artists are always excited when their
 work is transferred to the Big Screen. However, most in the comic book
 industry frown upon the practice of writing a screenplay and then
 trying to introduce it first as a graphic novel. Plus, the story
 structure is so much different from a screenplay than it is for a
 graphic novel. For example, a screenplay is paced to have a beginning,
 middle and end. Whereas a graphic novel series can be 4-6 single
 issues each with their own beginning, middle and cliff-hanger end to
 rope in the reader to follow up with future issues. Another thing - a
 writer for comics provides a ton of "directorial notes" - e.g., adding
 as much visual cue for the artist as possible. If I tried to provide
 this much visual direction to a screenplay, I would be scoffed at by
 producers and labeled an amateur (after all, the "vision" is the
 director's role!).

 So, I think what happens is that some really creative writers and
 artists develop some very cool, bleeding-edge concepts that they put
 out to the world as graphic novels. As these publications get popular,
 it catches Hollywood's eye and they option the works they think will
 make money.

 3. Let’s look at the movie THE SPIRITS, why did it fail at the box
 office? What lesson is there to be learned from this?

 Honestly, I didn't see THE SPIRITS. But it's easy to see why films
 like DARK KNIGHT, IRON MAN and the upcoming WATCHMEN inevitably
 succeed. Great story. Great character. Great effects. Graphic novels
 can have a cult following but once they are churned into movies they
 need to retain mass appeal to be considered a financial (not
 necessarily critical) success.

 4. What are some of your favorite graphic novels and comics?

 I enjoy horror noir. And I like the old campy horror like CREEPY and
 TALES FROM THE CRYPT. As for graphic novels, I like to peruse the
 indie market since that is what I create (so I try to support similar
 endeavours). I'd recommend a nice little OGN called HEATHENTOWN by
 Gabriel Hardman & Corinna Sara Bechko. I also like the work put out by
 Insomnia Publications (CANCER TOWN, CAGES) and Studio 407 who
 publishes my THE NIGHT PROJECTIONIST series as well as several other
 creepy horror titles (HYBRID, NETHERWORLD, DEMON SQUAD).

 5. What are some of your favorite horror movies?

 My favorite horror movie of all time is the original HALLOWEEN. Recent
 movies I have liked have centered on what I call "suburban horror"
 where the monster is man. A great example out of the UK was LAKE EDEN
 where a couple on romantic holiday at a secluded lake are terrorized
 by a local gang of teen hoodlums.

6. Could you name of some movies that you would like to see converted
 into graphic novels?

 I'm sure there are lots out there - I don't get to read as many
 graphic novels as I want to because they tend to be more expensive
 than books and my local "Annie's" used bookstore doesn't carry them. I
 spend so much money self publishing and self-promoting my COLD BLOODED
 CHILLERS series (available at www.coldbloodedchillers.com) that I
 can't rationalize buying new books to my wife and two hungry kids. I
 think HEATHENTOWN would be good. Not to mention that two titles from
 Studio 407 - HYBRID and THE NIGHT PROJECTIONIST - are both slated to
 be turned into films. I am also anxious to see how Hollywood can
 dumb-down the complex story of WATCHMEN into a 2-hour movie.

 7. What projects are you working on currently?

 I am writing a low budget thriller with a UK director and writing a
 spec script which I will market on my own. If I can get an uptick in
 sales for my COLD BLOODED CHILLERS series, I will also do a 4th issue
 this summer. I am hoping to start work on the screenplay for THE NIGHT
 PROJECTIONIST some time in the coming months too.

 8. Are you a strong believer that all aspiring and upcoming
 screenwriters should enter Screenplay Contests? Was your experiences
 any good or/and bad?

 Screenplay contests are good things and can both inspire and provide
 affirmation if you win/place/show. With that said, there is something
 to be said for moderation. Entry fees average $40-$60 and if you enter
 a lot of contests it can add up. I spent $2K one year. Sure, I felt
 good that a large share of the contests recognized my writing - but
 nothing sold. In retrospect, I'd put the money I spent on contest fees
 into hiring an artist to create my own comic book series or graphic
 novel. That's much more rewarding!

9. After you entered a few Short Screenplay Contests and winning, did
 some producers contact you afterwards? What are producers looking for
 in a short script?

 I've had lots of short screenplays optioned, but only one was made
 into a bonafide short that had quality actors and an Emmy-winning
 production crew - it was called WAITING (based on a short script I
 wrote called THE WAITING ROOM). It stars Richard Schiff and Izabella
 Miko and was co-written by director Lisa Demaine. Another film credit
 was for a co-writing job where I did an edit of the director's script.
 However, I still have lots of hope - particularly that my COLD BLOODED
 CHILLERS indie horror anthology gets noticed and a few of the stories
 get produced as shorts or as a web series. I should give a shout out
 to one contest for paying attention to me post-contest - James Fischer
 at The Writers Place (TWP) has kept in touch and included my
 accomplishments in updates on his website and in periodic mailings to
 producers. TWP is a nice little contest, should anyone be interested
 in submitting to a feature or short screenplay contest (they also have
 poetry contests).

 10. Studios which create and publish graphic novels -- are they
 looking for writers? Maybe they just look for a writing team (the
 inker and the writer).

 Just like production companies are always on the lookout for the next
 great "Slumdog Millionaire," publishers are also seeking the next
 great OGN. So the answer is "yes" ... but the odds are great (meaning
 not very good) that you will be "the one" they are looking for. Feel
 free to look up publishers and submit a treatment for your idea.
 Personally, in the modern digital "DIY" (do-it-yourself")
 self-publishing era, I would hook up with an artist that shares your
 vision and passion and make a go of it yourself. It takes time, some
 money, lots of commitment ... and maybe luck will shine on you.

 Bob Heske is the writer/creator of COLD BLOODED CHILLERS, a comic
 horror anthology that Dave Baxter @ BrokenFrontier.com calls "perhaps
 the very best of the independently published anthologies that I've
 read." Bob has also written a vampire series called THE NIGHT
 PROJECTIONIST through publisher Studio 407 (www.studio-407.com) with
 film rights optioned by Myriad Pictures (Jeepers Creepers 2). Cold
 Blooded Chillers (including the new BONE CHILLER "best of" anthology")
 are available as web downloads at www.drivethrucomics.com or can be
 ordered as print copies from www.coldbloodedchillers.com. Issue One of
 THE NIGHT PROJECTIONIST is available at local comic shops nationally.
 Call your LCS and ask them to order THE NIGHT PROJECTIONIST (December
 Diamond Preview Order # 084241) if it is not in stock.

This one, sadly like much of Paul Schrader's work these days, has slipped under the radar despite being a story about the holocaust or more accurately, what happnes to a clown afer his whole family is wiped out. Here is Schrader on the challenges of  trying to adapt excellent books to the screen

I'm a huge fan of Yoram's book, so I have to preface all my remarks by saying that we made a very good adaptation in this film, but we cannot approach the greatness of the book. The greatness of the book is defined by its literary quality, by its words. When a book is really a literary masterpiece, rather than a narrative masterpiece, you can never quite do it justice, because it is what it is. You are never really going to do The Sound and the Fury or Lolita. You can get pretty close, but you can't really nail a book whose very language is its greatness. The reason that Philip Roth's books have failed to make good films is because he writes about despicable characters who are redeemed by language. When you translate them into film, you have despicable characters, but you don't have language.

(Read the whole interview at Greencine.)

Here is the first 9 minutes from Bresson's The Devil Probably and an interview at the Canne film fest which he directed in 1983 for the film L Argent . Sublime

I wonder how much folks realize how interesting the journey of Neil PatricK Harris has been in Hollywood. Going from child sit-com actor to a successful out-and-about grown-up actor can not have been easy; and to speak in a culturally intelligent manner deserves some respect.

In an interview in Out.com, he says his job is "jester, not advocate." He speaks of being a gay actor then and now, stealing scenes, and being cast as a leading man.

Smart fellow.

Hollywood, of all industries, is forgiving of it's employees' oft-times dangerous habits. Read this David Carr’s NYT profile of Robert Downey Jr   and revel in the cosmic irony of addiction-marketing synergy

[Downey’s] romance with mood-altering chemicals didn’t end after he got out of prison. By 2003 he was an uninsurable serial relapser famous for being pulled out of hotels or other people’s homes in an addled, disheveled state. As a movie star with a lot of pals, he lived a life beyond consequence until he finally wore out the endless mercies of the entertainment business. After he was fired from his spot on Ally McBeal, the bottom finally came, at a Burger King of all places.

On or around Independence Day in 2003, he stopped at a Burger King on the Pacific Coast Highway and threw all his drugs in the ocean. And while he was sitting there chewing on a burger, he decided he was done. This being America, five years later you can walk into that Burger King, and if you order a Kids Meal you can get your own Robert Downey Jr. action figure, wrapped up in gadget ware. (And what does Tony Stark want when he escapes his kidnappers? A good old American cheeseburger — from Burger King, natch.)

It seems Burger King is poised for a come-back as well.

"I like LA 'cause it's sort of blank, I'm not super-influenced by eight million cool things happening around me like I would be in New York. It's quieter so I can figure out what I'm thinking. Weirdly, LA helps me do more personal work," Thumbsucker director and graphic artist Mike Mills tells Blankscreenmedia in a brief, comic Q&A. "I love time travel, do it often. I most like going back to just after World War I in Europe, visiting the Dadaists and the beginnings of what would become the Bauhuas scene. I'm not so interested in re-design[ing] anything, but I'd love to see and feel what it was like when those people were making those things, I think the art world really has developed little since all those strategies began. But what do I know about such things, I live in LA after all, and talk to my dog all day."

We liked Jim Connell's film Saul Goodman (scroll down for our review) so much we shot him an email full of questions and he was kind enough to answer them.

 From the press kit I saw that you are self-taught in computer animation and you also act, write, and direct. How on earth do you find the time?A: That's a good question because, for this project, time was the biggest hurdle. Not only did I have to model, surface, and manually animate this thing in my spare time (I've a full time day job), but I had two old Mac PC's handling the rendering workload. So, I had to schedule jobs to render while I was sleeping, traveling or on vacation. A few scenes lasting only 8 or 10 seconds took several weeks to render. That's the biggest reason it took 2 1/2 years to complete. 

 In addition to a good action/thriller/noir/- Geez, I run out of genres- it is also a film of ideas, very modern ideas of whats' going on today.

A: Those are the kind of movies I like though. I either like movies based on one BIG idea ("Matrix") or ones that explore several interesting ideas ("Minority Report") in a fun and entertaining way. I also like movies that are just about conversation and debate. If you think about it, "JFK" is a 3 hour movie where a bunch of people argue over an abstract conspiracy, schedules and forensics. That's it. There's only one head shot, and you have to wait 2 1/2 hours to see it. But Oliver Stone hits the fast-forward button, turns up the volume to 11 and we're riveted...at least I was anyway. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the brainless stuff too. I'd wait in line for four hours to watch Schwarzenegger rip some dude's arms off, and wouldn't feel the least bit guilty.

 Who are some of your influences, in terms of film and literature?

A: In many ways, "Saul Goodman" was a homage to Oliver Stone in general, "JFK" in particular. Especially during the 90's, his films were the most personal, excessive, visceral and ALIVE you could find. It's hard to go to a theater nowadays and really be surprised. One can be impressed with the special effects, or admire the artistry, but it's really hard to be genuinely surprised. Filmmakers like Stone, Tarrantino and Paul Thomas Anderson are able to consistently confound expectations and pull the audience into what feels like uncharted territory. I can still remember seeing "Pulp Fiction" to a packed audience on opening night. By the time the hillbillies let loose The Gimp, the audience was on pins and needles....no one knew where this ****ed up movie was going next, but we knew it would be cool, or sick, or funny, or all three. 

 What's involved in the animation process?

A: After I recorded the voices from John and Eric, I'd import into a character animation program, lip sync and animate them. I'd then import that scene into Lightwave, surround it with objects and sets (some of which I licensed, some I designed) and set up the scenes. Since most of the action in "Saul" is a re-enactment of one of the Old Man's stories, I also literally synced the action to the dialogue. I would count exactly how many seconds it took the Old Man to say something (e.g. 10), break that down into frames (e.g. 300), decide how many shots were required to re-enact that statement (e.g. 3) and then budget how many frames I gave each shot (e.g. 100/150/50). This pre-planning was meticulous, but basically meant I had very little editing to do.....it was the old 'measure twice cut once rule'. 

The great Iranian Filmmaker Abbas Kiarostami is interviewed by THND's Keith Uhlich. Kiarostami has an upcoming retrospect at MoMA. Excellent. Do check it out.

I could not let this one slip by. Alex Williams interviews David Lynch in the NYTs about Inland Empire (see our review) and his new book on meditation. Lynch says "To be a grown-up and to do what you want to do is the most swaying prairie grass. “But this doesn’t happen for most people. Sadly, they have to make ends meet....I heard Charles Bukowski started meditation late in his life... He was an angry, angry guy, but he apparently loved meditation.” Of course, just as meditation never got Mr. Lynch over a taste for the macabre, it never quenched Mr. Bukowski’s famous thirst for whiskey. “Well, maybe in time, it would have,” Mr. Lynch said with a smile. “In the meantime — just more enjoyment of the whiskey.” (via Movie City Indie)

Many viewers and critics consider HBO's The Wire to be the best show on television. Here's Writer/Creator David Simon talking with Slate:

Slate: If you had to sum up what The Wire is about, what would it be?

Simon: Thematically, it's about the very simple idea that, in this Postmodern world of ours, human beings—all of us—are worth less. We're worth less every day, despite the fact that some of us are achieving more and more. It's the triumph of capitalism.

Slate: How so?

Simon: Whether you're a corner boy in West Baltimore, or a cop who knows his beat, or an Eastern European brought here for sex, your life is worth less. It's the triumph of capitalism over human value. This country has embraced the idea that this is a viable domestic policy. It is. It's viable for the few. But I don't live in Westwood, L.A., or on the Upper West Side of New York. I live in Baltimore.

That's why it's the best show on TV.

David Lynch talks about Inland Empire with Laura Dern and Justin Theroux (sp.?) at the New York Film Festival. He offers insight into the filmmaking process and how the film came about. Clocking in at nearly 3 hours, it might be possible that Lynch did not get distribution offers but I doubt it. The Uropians would have jumped in if no else ponied up. Check it out.

- Scott Foundas interviews Filmmaker Andrew Bujalski. : "Part of me wishes that I had the kind of attention span it would take to be a novelist, but I don’t think I could do it, because it requires you to stay locked up in your own brain and feed off of your own energy for an incredibly long time. I feel like the opposite of that is what’s thrilling about filmmaking. There are so many other life forces to draw from."

  Jonathan Marlow has a rare and excellent interview with Czech Filmmaker Jan Svankmajer whose new film Lunacy opens in the US this week:

"For me, my work is actually a sort of auto-therapy. This is how I use it. But it doesn't really work forever, it only works for sometime and then, when it's over, I again have to make a new film. Actually, the auto-therapy is the process of filmmaking. When I am making a film, it's my self-therapy but everything that comes after that is just killing me again. It's something like festivals, this life after death."

Wow. (greencine)

The Guardian has a good interview with Pedro Almodovar about his new film Volver, going back to his roots, and working with old muses.

One of the goals of this site is to promote emerging filmmakers and one such filmmaker is Writer/Director Douglas Elford-Argent. Working with his wife, triple-threat Actress/Screenwriter/Editor Wendy Elford-Argent and Producer Ted Willett, they have put together a very professional film for very little money. Below is an interview HIT had with Doug by email:

First, congratulations on your feature “AfterThought.” I was fortunate enough to be at the premier at AFI and really enjoyed it. 

Thank you
 
Doug, give us a bit of background on you and your partners involved in the project.

I opened a production company just over a year ago, 30 Something Productions, LLC in order to make AfterThought. This was also mainly to start creating independent films here in LA. I had a company in London, England, but wasn’t too happy with how they were marketing themselves. I met Ted Willett, my producing partner, and we decided to help one another to raise money and start making quality features for under a million dollars. 
 

Can you tell us a little about pre-production and how you approach this part of the filmmaking process?

My wife, Wendy, wrote the screenplay. The whole idea was hers. When we took a trip back to her hometown of Waupaca, WI, we noticed the overwhelming support from the town; Police, Fire, High Schools and Local Businesses opened up their arms to us. The majority of the financing came from Waupaca. Newspapers continue to print updates informing the town of our progress. 
 

I believe the film was shot in Hi-Def? The picture and sound were excellent. Tell us a bit about the decisions you and your DP made in terms of equipment.

A lot of people get HDV mixed up with HDCAM. They are two different cameras. We used HDCAM, a larger camera with higher resolution and contrast. It was the same camera they shot Star Wars Episode I on. You have to understand where your film will end up. Most filmmakers assume it will be picked up at Sundance and be screened in all theaters across America, but we knew from the get-go that AfterThought was a DVD release. If it’s shot right, it’s almost impossible to tell 35mm and HDCAM on a regular TV. It was a lot faster to shoot HD than film. Playback was instant and gave you more of an idea of the finishing look. Film playback is low and you can only watch performances. Many directors are turning to HD as the medium of choice. Superman Returns and Miami Vice were shot on HD. 
 

Many folks were blown away by the sound recording and mix as many lower-budgeted films suffer from bad sound. How did you guys pull it off?

It all counts on the ‘Production Sound.’ Dennis Haggerty did an amazing job. All the actors were clip mic’d and of course we had the boom mic. Our ‘Post Sound Designer,’ Garrard Whatley, was so grateful for Dennis’s clean recordings, but Garrard also recorded all Foley sound for a 5.1 mix, it was important to get the sound right. 
 

I believed you worked with pro and non-pro actors? What were some of the challenges casting and working with the performers?

It’s hard to call certain actors pro or not pro. We were casting for a non-union show, which means no regular Screen Actors Guild actors could be used. Some SAG actors have a different status with the union and were able to do both. Most of the actors were excited and keen to be in a feature regardless. Some actors ended up paying out of their own pockets to be in the film and were professional all the way through to the screening.  
 

How about the logistics while shooting in Wisconsin? You folks shot at several locations.

The town was about 2 miles square so company moves didn’t hurt us too much. We were able to get all our locations for free, which helped our ‘post production’ budget. Everyone gave more than we asked, Wendy and I were married not too far from Waupaca, so we knew exactly who to approach for food and the making-of video. 

Tell us a bit about post on the project? I believe it was done here in LA?

Yes all post was done in LA. Wendy cut an off-line edit of the picture alone, then the sound files from this ‘locked picture’ are handed to the sound designer (Garrard Whatley). He decides on what works and what dialogue needs to be replaced via ADR (Audio Dialogue Replacement). The off-line picture, in the meantime, is handed to the ‘On-line’ editor (HD Studios). They color-time the film while the DP (Marc Menet) and I supervise. Finally we were ready to ‘ marry’ the picture to the sound back to the original HDCAM format. The thing I love about LA is that, even as an Indie filmmaker, the big companies are out there to help smaller people like me. 
 

Doug, you are originally from the UK, I believe. Compare making films there to here in Hollywood.

Completely different, it’s like ‘chalk and cheese.’ England has the best technicians in the world, but the mentality in England is so far from Hollywood. Over here there are people willing to take meetings with a no-name director, they listen and are prepared for the most outrageous stories. In England, there is a certain way and style to making films. That is why we have suffered in the past decades. We need a studio system in London, but right now, all we really have is a place for Americans to shoot. 
 

What’s the strategy for getting your feature “AfterThought” out there for people to see? The festival route or going to straight to a distributor or broadcaster?

Since we have unknown actors we need to take it to a few Festival screenings. This announces to the distributor that our work is worth buying, I have currently mailed out about 20 DVDS to festivals, all in America. My film is very commercial, so I am unclear on how it will work at festivals. I can say it was made to be sold, not to be 'different'. 

What’s up next for your and your collaborators, Doug?

I am in negotiations with creators for a 22 million dollar film based on the Dr. Seuss Kids, and I am also rewriting and plan to re-shoot a film I did called 25%. This is a road movie to be shot for $400,000 or near to that. 

Thanks a bunch for taking the time to answer our questions and HIT wishes the best of luck on “AfterThought.” 
Thank you.

Kevin Smith talking with Ray Pride:

"For years, I've been fuckin' inundated with people saying, it's time for you to stretch as a filmmaker, it's time for you to grow as a filmmaker, whether visually or just narratively. People always want you to be better and to do more and go further and it's like... I, I don't want to. These are the stories that I want to tell. After twelve years, don't you get it, Harvey? This is what I do. I enjoy doing it and you guys turn a profit off of it, so why do I need to do a Green Hornet movie?"

This is why you love'em.

When the Devine Carpenter was asked "How many times should I forgive my Celebrity if she trespasseth against me?" to which the Beloved said: "Seventy times seven." With that in mind:

"Levin asked Hilton about such comments as, "Paris is just an overused human condom," "Paris is like a fart in a mitten. You know it's there, you can't stand it, but you can't get rid of it," and "Would you please drop over dead or commit suicide you damn slut."

Hilton said "I'm far less promiscuous than any of my friends." As for the infamous sex tape with ex-lover Rick Solomon, Hilton said "I'm judged because of something that an ex-boyfriend did to me. I'm not a slut at all."

Hilton says that many of the TMZ comments are "very hurtful" to her and that some make her cry. She says "They think I don't have any feelings." (TMZ)

Ray Pride has a great interview with Actor now Writer/Director Grant on the making of his first feature film Wah Wah. " I thought if a story like this suffered from “NYPD Blue” [jiggering] it would drive me nuts. And I know that’s the fashion for almost any cinematography now, this reluctance to actually allow the camera to rest on somebody’s face for more than two nanoseconds without jiggling it around or moving it. The cinematographer thought it was a fairly radical departure because he expected that’s what I would be after."